Discussion with a liberal: Part III

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Discussion with a liberal: Part III

Written by Cerebral Debris

Tuesday, 09 September 2008 00:00

So in this 3rd part LF decides to get insulting. At one point throughout these exchanges I was tempted to think that sometimes it was LF writing and sometimes someone else. Mainly because of inconsistencies in the argument, but mostly because in some of his replies the grammar improved and the spelling was better. Some of his replies just felt like someone else writing them.

First of all, my original intent was to further discuss our political views at some point. It's a subject that I'm quite addicted to. But the religious aspect has overshadowed the issue and gone a little wayward. Oh, well. Guess it's the topic for now (=
If you go back to the original reason for my reply, it was to address your chastising Christan's about being good Christian's, when you admittedly reject our very beliefs.
Now, if you want to go back to the original reply and get to the core of this discussion it was that in that e-mail that you sent your mom, myself and others, you came off as a Christian. But the reality is that you had already told me previously that you don't believe in God or the Bible. So my question was- well are you or aren't you? Because your preaching good Christianity to me is hypocritical and insulting.
If you have an argument to make then make it. If you have a beef about something, then hash it out. But be up front with people about where it is you're coming from rather than just chastising Christian's about being good Christian's while hiding the fact that you think our beliefs are just silly fairy tales to begin with. If your arguments are valid and you believe that Christianity is wrong, or childish, or nothing more than blind devotion, then don't say you don't believe it and at the same time preach it. Use your own "facts". Use your own "truths". If it really is all about truth for you and those thruths don't include Christ and the Bible, then don't use what you believe is false as an argument. Conviction in your beliefs affords you more credibility in your arguments.

Ummm... lets see. Your making this way tooo complicated. You and I both know you don't have to be a Christian to understand the Christian religion. More specifically, I have read the Bible, I understand what's in the bible and I understand the teachings of Christ. Whom I believe is a historical figure who was a great teacher. But not the son of God.
I feel I need to make this as short as possible.
Your faith in God is blind faith... a placebo not the real truth. The truth is very complex... not a simple fairy tale. If you feel better its cause you think you know the truth.

Your condescension is nauseating...
...you hint that you have the truth, yet you avoid giving any insight by using the "it's very complex" routine. If you have "the real truth", I'd think you would be ecstatic about it. Ready to shout it from the rooftops.
So you're a man of science. Truth to you is only scientific. Is your extensive knowledge of science what makes you an authority on what you refer to as "the real truth"? So what's this mysterious and complex "real truth" you like to say but not expand on? You speak as though being a man of science means you've got proof that God doesn't exist.
I have a brother who earned his Master's degree in biology. His research covered molecular biology, cell biology, biochemistry, evolution, etc. Guess what LF- he's also one of the most devout Christian's I know.
Gee, with all that science, how can that be?

I don't know what the "truth" is. And I'm okay with it. You don't so you convince yourself you do.
Maybe a god does exist but I doubt it. I'm not ruling it out though.
Your belief in God is not based in facts it's based on feelings. Feelings, my friend, are chemical reactions in your brain. Sorry, feelings don't pass the empirical evidence test.

You left out 2 words that I wrote- personal manifestation. Call me wacky. Call me a zealot. Call me whatever you want. It won't be the first time and certainly not the last. The words mean what they mean, and it has nothing to do with a simple feeling. Take from it what you will.
To quote your last e-mail-

I believe in absolute truth, but I understand I still have much too much to learn to judge others.

You judge others all the time LF. You've judged Christian's as idiots who don't know why they believe what they believe. You've also made other judgements on others that contradict that statement. I'll go over that more in a few minutes.
My personal faith is what it is. It can't be swayed, altered or manipulated. You wouldn't understand it because, well, you don't share the same faith I do. It's not something I can convince you of, and frankly have no desire to convince you of. I said as much in the last e-mail. Remember, it wasn't me who shoved my beliefs in your face. It was you who insulted, attacked and undermined my beliefs. I've never once told that you should be a certain way or that you have to believe in certain things.

You asked what I believe and I told you. When it comes to believing in god or not you have to be direct. I told you why I don't believe. That's all. I don't agree with your belief in man-god but whatever floats your boat. (And yes I can be judgmental at times I'm trying not to be. I'm not perfect!)

That's one of the great beauties about our Constitution. Our freedom of religion is one of it's greatest guarantees. I'm free to believe what I believe and you are free to not believe what I believe.

I love this country and I believe very strongly in the Ideals of this country.
If you can offer scientific evidence a man-god created the world without the argument: ‘its something I know and feel because my life has been so dramatically changed' -- you might actually have something.

Again LF. The intention was never to prove anything. Nor is it the desire to. You've made a mockery of my beliefs. Your request, if it could be met as requested, is insincere. Don't ask me for proof of God. Ask God. Or, just continue on with your fruitless quest for the knowledge that God doesn't exist.
Yeah, I believe that man was "created in God's image". Because I believe the Bible. Why do I believe the Bible ... or according to you... fairy tales? Faith.
Why do I believe in God? Personal manifestation and faith.
No, it wasn't a little tickly feeling in my tummy or a feeling of any kind. If you've never experienced it, then I'm sorry. It's only something you know when it happens to you personally.

"Faith and Personal manifestation... can't explain it...." Sounds neato! In other word, it's a matter of faith and that's all.

You stated in the last e-mail that your "faith continues to evolve". I asked you the question "your faith in what?"
Is your faith in the science that for years and in vain has tried to prove that God doesn't exist.
Your faith "evolves" and my faith grows.
You also like to mention the words man-god. You say that as though you believe the some other intelligence created the universe. That's the assumption I'm left with. Is that the case? Or not at all

Nope. Don't know. And I'm okay with that... scary, maybe sometimes, but also very exciting. Life and the Universe is a mystery full of beauty. I'm sorry you can't understand my belief. "If you've never experienced it then I'm sorry."

You leave the question of are you an atheist? Or are you an agnostic?

Agnostic, I suppose. As I said God could exist but I don't have any evidence.

The personal experience argument is very weak.

It's not an argument, it's a statement. A testimony. How can you expect to ever experience it when you go out of your way to degrade it? How can you expect manifestation from God when all you do is disrespect and mock Him?

>I don't expect manifestations from god.
I was a devout Christian for many years. I grew out of it. I decided not to believe everything I've been told, blindly. I did have moments of great emotion and feeling. I was convinced but later realized It was nothing. Just my emotions getting the best of me.
Kudos for making progress in your personal life but it would be a pretty big stretch for me to conclude it was GOD who "saved you." Love, Hatred, fear, joy - they are all chemical reactions in your brain. And all can be measured and manipulated with chemicals and electric charges. My point is, if the only proof you can muster is personal experience....

Again. It was never my intention to prove anything to you as far as my beliefs go. If you'd focused on the real question it was a legitimate one that had nothing to do with proving anything to you; but had everything to do with the discussion at hand. I questioned your credibility on the subject of preaching Christianity and at the same time rejecting it. That pissed you off and you replied that 'your faith and beliefs are no one's business but your own'... yet you made my beliefs your business. I can at least say that I'm honest about what I believe, and am not afraid or ashamed to admit it. You on the other hand have given nothing but vague statements about science and being "one in the universe". You've offered nothing of substance. You offer zero insight. Just broad statements and mockeries.

Don't know the ultimate truth. I'm okay with that. But again, that doesn't mean I can't know the teachings of the bible or Jesus. If your response is: you don't believe so you can't know - then what can I say? It's the all-time catch 22! Or, it's a matter of faith and that's all.
Well put it this way.
I'm guessing the Muslims, Egyptians, Aztecs and other pagans and any other deeply religious person would profess to the same amazing unmistakable feeling...
So these people didn't have a "personal manifestation?"
It's why Muslims are willing to kill themselves for their God... (They have no proof either).
Talk to me when you have proof.
I'll tell you the same. You tell me about it when you have proof that God doesn't exist. It would be the scientific news of the millenium.

The science of what? Using theories of monkeys as our ancestors. Wow. That's enlightening.
Or was it the big bang theory? Or maybe it was just the science of whatever might work well with your anti-Christian agenda. I wouldn't know. You make nothing but talking points with no substance.

Yeah, All that stuff. It's amazing. I love science.
So before you throw up your hands and say: "It's all too complicated. God is great!
My mistake. You are saying it's simple. I'm saying it's complicated.
Humans are fallen and could never comprehend his great creation.

I've never said that. You mentioned that Christian's reject science. Nope, that's not true. That's just another liberal myth. I believe that science has helped us to greatly expand our knowledge about God's great creation.

But you pick and choose.

We use science to help us understand and learn more about the workings of God's creation while you and other anti-Christians use science to try and disprove Christianity.

I'm not anti Christian. And either is the overwhelming majority of scientists who believe in evolution.

What we reject are theories being presented in such a one sided manner. The theory of evolution has been accepted into our schools and taught for years. It's been presented without any opposing view or possibility such as creationism or intelligent design. Oh, mention that and the anti-Christian groups hiss and scream in full blown rejection.

creationism and intelligent design are not scientific theories they are religion and faith and thus have no place in school. You cant argue the validity of evolution but only if you use good science - not faith.

Oh, and you may be asking why I called you condescending earlier. I'll tell you why even if you weren't wondering. You are making the arrogant mistake of assuming that anyone who is Christian must be completely ignorant about science.

I don't think you are totally ignorant of science but you reject what doesn't jive with your faith and that's not right -- The Scientific consensus is not to be challenged lightly. And just because some wacko published some wacko article in a wacko magazine or journal doesn't mean you should take it for proof. It should appear in a scientific journal - a real one. (trying to head off you sending me wacko articles by wacko authors in wacko journals/magazines

You're assuming that what you know about science is so much more than any fairy tale believing Christian would know. If you want to talk science with me LF, go right ahead. Don't ever assume that I'm incapable of understanding any subject you might want to cover. My ability to seek out and obtain and retain knowledge is something that I'm very proud of. I consider it a gift from God and work very hard daily to improve on it a little more.

I'm sure you know some science. You're a smart guy, no denying.
I don't know everything about science that's why I depend on the scientific community.
If I didn't, I guess I'd assume the world was flat - I haven't made any measurements myself and I doubt you have either. So we are left with a set of scientific opinions - The majority of scientists and those on the fringes.
I say, why not. We are of the Universe. We are not apart from it.
Lets discover its nature and not jump to conclusions.

The same way you've jumped to the conclusion that God doesn't exist? Oh, that's right. You know "the real truth". Yet it's too complex for us dumb Christian's, right?

Nope, don't know. Your smart and so are many other Christians and I'm not arguing any different.
I don't "know the real truth" I'm in search of it and on good days I think I get a little closer.
We've already learned a lot.
We've learned from the Bible too. Even Karl Marx the athiest said: "The church is the heart of a heartless world.

First of all, Karl Marx was a communist who also liked to mock religion with lines like "religion is the opiate of the masses". His words mean nothing to me. The socialist agenda that the left is hellbent on pushing us into is nothing less than a segue into full-blown communism. Something for which I have zero tolerance. If you'd like to discuss that further I've got a whole lot more to say on the subject.
Secondly, if the Bible is nothing more than a fairy tale, then how could you possibly have learned from it? Stick with me for a minute and read through your next statement...

I'm familiar with Karl Marx. I'm a sociology/criminology/political science major. And yes he was the author of the Communist Manifesto. And he made many good points regarding the fallibility of capitalism. Captialism is good but not above reproach like some believe. It's not divinely inspired. It has to be regulated.
The Bible has taught me so much. The most enduring message for me is unconditional love.

...You've said it's a fairy tale. If it isn't true, then no one is bound by it's teachings other than its being anything more than simply good ideas to live by. Don't ask us "what would Jesus do?", and at the same time laugh at us for believing in "fairy tales".

Yes, teachings from a great man not the Son of God. I know the teachings of Jesus and I don't think it out of bounds to engage people regarding their faith. It's my right to have an opinion. What of it?

Here are 2 words for you: George Bush...

You try and tell people about love, peace and ask WWJD? , and all the while you spew your own hate and venom against the leaders of your own country. The mere mention of the name George Bush, or Dick Cheney will send you into fits of your own hate speech, yet you want to preach to everyone else about love, peace and repect for ALL? Give me a break LF! Your do as I say, not as I do hypocrisy is maddening. So don't come to me preaching love, patience, understanding, respect and all that when you spread plenty of your own hate around every chance you get.

I choose to speak out for the least of these. You can protect the powerful all you want. I prefer to serve those without means and power. People are living in squalor, being shot in the streets, have no food to eat, and republicans don't give a damn!
Where's your unconditional love for all of "God's children"?

I think you could ask yourself that same question. Aside from that, once again, that last line is a good starter for another exchange.

I serve others everyday. I'm filled with empathy and love for all life. It's my occupation and my passion. I make no distinctions based on faith, religion, color, nationality, sexuality, or anything... I believe it's my calling to serve. After all:

"We're just ordinary people, we don't know which way to go."
(John Legend.)

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